Despite it being essential, movement isn't that much talked about in the realms of metal. Or rather a very specific and important type of movement isn't – dancing. When was the last time you danced at a metal concert? Think long and hard. Got it? Nice. For me it's super easy as I can just say Laster whom I saw alongside Messa on the 31th of July. A day after Gojira. THE Gojira. And guess what I ended up enjoying more? Yep, this and a big part of it were Laster and me, dancing alongside my friend in the first row. It wasn't pretty, in all honesty it probably looked scuffed but it was pure and the band took a bit of that energy and yeeted it right back at us.
After that madness I found myself chatting with the band's guitarist which smoothly concludes the intro and context of this exciting moment. First of all thank you so much for taking a bit of your time to do this, means a ton and thank you for an absolutely wonderful show. How did Zagreb and the rest of the tour treat ya?
Nicky: Our show at Zagreb’s Club Močvara was one of the highlights of the tour. The energy in that venue was just right! Attendees were dancing, making out, standing with their arms crossed, or simply wiggling and nodding along. Those people have thrown more in our direction than we could possibly throw back at them. Afterwards, I was humbled to speak with such a diverse crowd, of whom some traveled quite the distance to see us. It’s funny how, of all places, it's the merch table that allows us to engage in brief heartfelt conversation with others. All in all, it felt wonderful to be on the road again after two years of reduced activity. Not only to spread our music but also to be on an adventure with some of my all-time favorite people. That is not to say that touring is all fun and games. Getting up early, loading the van, driving hours and hours just to get to the next destination, finding stability in the repetitive hell that is an endless stream of gas stations, unload the van, wait, eat, explode on stage, socialize, load the van again, sleep, repeat; it can be a bit grating, despite all the beauty that comes with it. Still, I’d do it again in a heartbeat and look forward to all upcoming shows!
Loveloth: It is strange right? A merch table acting like a gathering hub. Ever since I got rid of that fear of approaching, I regularly find myself there chatting with people like you and it’s always an absolute pleasure. Funnily enough I wanted to ask how tough on you the tour grindset is because I don’t think too many people realize the monotony and lack of private space that dominates that setting. Either way I’m glad the good outweighs the bad.
Plus, hearing you praise our lil' venue and our people really makes me happy, especially after seeing you first hand. Following that I can now safely say how your music is well suited for intimate settings as much as live ones.
This feeling, for those who are not in the know, came to be thanks to music that could serve as the soundtrack for Murnau's iconic Nosferatu or evoke images of dimly lit, smoke-filled and mysterious jazz lounges from the 1930's. In them people either gaze from the even darker corners or just keep dancing... and dancing... until they can't stand.
Laster calls their sound “New wave of Dutch obscure dance music” which is actually super accurate and what I could've used instead of my hopefully not overly corny description. I found this approach more fun, reflecting their character despite basically playing black metal. Danse macabre-evoking black metal.
Now, a question for you gentlemen as it directly references what you're all about. How understated do you believe dancing is in metal as a whole? Live shows, articles, performances, everything and have the post-pandemic concerts contained more... well dancing as well as responses from the crowds?
Sylwin: Firstly, I considered whether the notion of dancing to which we refer merely contains a bodily dimension. One may observe that ideas, emotions, influences, and non-physical affections in general, can be ‘danced’ with. By people who wonder, by philosophers, by love-takers and love-givers and those who place such energy central to their lives. Dancing, then, would come to mean wondering, doubting, expressing, breeding your inner life through lines and planes (Spinoza). Thus, it acquires the meaning of acting through psychological states and affects as bodies that freely move. Anno 2022, such a lifestyle is regardless of favoring any genre in music, I would say. Its starting point is somewhat like a neutrum; it can go into any (musical) direction. It is born from consciousness accepting that nothing is fixed, an acceptance that today is increasingly culturalized as either valued or devalued.
Secondly, metal has become a highly popularized style of music already for quite some time now. It has had many opportunities and crises through which it has evolved, often bonding and mingling with other types of music in the process, for example hip hop, or jazz. Seemingly characteristic for metal concerts is the headbanging - hedonism par example - although it may as well be considered a stereotypical style of dance. Today, a considerable share of the audience may, for cultural reasons, not be willing to headbang. They may stand still physically, but one may only guess what happens inside them. What I find striking in this, is that people who do not engage in physical abundance during a live show do actually promote ‘dancing’ as a mark for positive energy, for example by writing this in their social media stories. Promoters of concerts and festivities use similar wordings sometimes. The energy they dig may be of a seemingly non-bodily quality. However, it may be as of a similar celebratory kind as the types of activities which are initially invoked in the common sense when the notion of dance is mentioned.
Thus, Laster is comprised of artists that seek to bond and mingle with what seems to be unknown to them. We seek to move around these lines and planes and bodies, sometimes provocatively, sometimes contemplatively. To dance is to affirm, but not primarily on the premise of dichotomy - for example between body and soul - as if it were to represent a concept of nature that invokes an experience of transcendence (see Casper David Friedrich’s Wanderer). That, to me then, would be art representing sadness and flee to the otherwise unattainable bliss. Dancing is dancing with, you take part in and become of the same power. That cannot be outside of time and matter. It cannot be glorified. There is energy, bodies, emotions, reason, life, yourself and the possible absence of it. It is around us or underway to reach us, like Laster and our ideas are in motion.
Why, then, metal as the primary sound of our music? In a sense, the three of us have always been searching for someone or something since we were little. We found satisfaction in metal. And this went to get difficult as well, because not everyone agreed with us being overtly remaining in search of… throughout the years. We grew up with metal because of contingency: metal music-loving dads, rise of the internet, apparent hints of religion, philosophy and other mysteries in black metal, teenage angst and tragedies of youth that called for angry and romantic music. Yet, as friends and connections seemingly needed more fixed narratives in order to feel themselves thrive, we somehow foresaw that it would kill our artistic aspirations.
Of course, we remain rooted in what we know and what has deeply affected us, e.g. also metal music. We nevertheless rebelled, suffered and enjoyed great adventures together while in touch with various influences. We still do. To me, constructive openness and expression of that has had a strong philosophical connotation as well. Like a part of ethics, sometimes relentlessly self-reflexive and thus provisional. As such, I have developed my little, personal metaphysics of dance haha.
I take part in a partner’s dance of the three of us with each other and metal. It takes place in the world that’s observable around us. I don’t know if there are other metal artists around who approach their music like this.
Loveloth: That’s a beautiful way of looking at it. Funny how you mentioned Spinoza whom I distinctly remember disliking from my high school days because I… did not understand what the guy was on about hahaha. Upon further reading I realized he also looked at things in a very wholesome and advanced way when compared to his peers. God is nature and nature is God. Super simple yet he found himself excommunicated in a strangely brutal way. Then again questioning the Bible back then was a big no no as he found out the hard way. He was also Dutch which I completely forgot haha.
Now to touch upon your explanation a bit, I am very expressive with my emotions so I am one of those people who sometimes say stuff like: “Wow this xy band deserves a better crowd because look how calm everyone is!” from time to time.
Still believe this is applicable in some cases like with super high-energy bands who need it in return to keep that insane output BUT, and this is a big one (literally, caps locked it), I came to realize how I have no idea how those “calmer” concert goers are on the inside. They could be exploding from happiness in there and most of us would have no idea. It’s what you said.
Furthermore, I love how you tied the metaphysical with something so physical and as someone who doesn’t “know” how to dance, I take great pride in how my “unknowing” leads to something only I have which neatly ties with… well everyone and how all of us are dancing each day. Like you said, dancing with ideas, fears, love, struggles, you name it.
And for me metal has the best shot at portraying the whole human condition, I say shot because in reality, fully showcasing all the ins and outs of something as simple yet complex as our existence is impossible but the fun thing is that we all know it without knowing it.
Obviously that’s me and my bias speaking but with people like you expressing yourselves and reaching others with this expression, I love to think that I’m right in this assessment. Bottom line is, I believe your music stands out not because you want it to but because you need it to. If you created anything that’s not 100% you then that would not be it. Choosing black metal as your core from which you build these hallways is pretty much ideal too as it a deeply misunderstood genre. If you’re not a big fan or approach it from a surface level that is.
So with all that said, do you feel as if you've built a niche perhaps? A niche that could become more explored or reiterated upon as more bands emerge from the increasingly evolving Netherlands' scene? Or do you feel like you're just doing your thing and how others do the same in their own way? I know all of you play in other bands so I wonder what's the actual situation in the scene seeing how you're a part of it.
Wessel: It is true that we listen to a lot of niche music, so you could be right. In terms of building a niche, we don’t really know. Most of it comes down to writing the actual music. Over time, we tend to play more and more with dynamics, time signatures, and other playing techniques. In our earlier works, songs felt more like a constant stream of energy that keeps flowing. Most of it was in simple 4/4. On our latest work, and especially our upcoming album, we use more beats and hooks that feel more characteristic on their own. Even though we have never left the idea of playing blastbeats and double bass parts, I think that exploring these other kinds of concepts leaves us in more unknown waters.
And all of this only comes to fruition because we discuss these ideas a lot with the three of us. With our other projects, the group dynamics are very different, of course. Sometimes we see that other bands from the Netherlands try to develop their own style as well, which is nice. It would be great if what we do gives others the courage to explore this as well. I think this is something everyone should find out for themselves.
Loveloth: I think you do though or so I hope. Very glad you mentioned your upcoming album as I am deeply curious with your direction on it as I did notice more and more non-metal elements getting implemented. When can we expect it? And where do the masks come in? What was the inspiration behind them? And are they are a tool to kinda remove the “you” when you perform and turn you into these anonymous figures that demand attention or something else entirely? By the way, I like the designs, they feel Venetian yet have that ominous beak from the Plague era as well as something Greek lurking beneath. Like both parts of those theatre masks melded with all the other elements.
Nicky: Oof, no idea when the album can be expected. We’re mixing it right now and given the long production time for vinyl, I’m not expecting it to be out soon. It doesn’t worry us too much though. We’ll keep ourselves busy with playing shows, writing new material, and releasing a few upcoming works through our label Kunstlicht. Up next is the final Willoos full-length and something fresh by RSTZ, so keep an eye out for those!
About the masks, they first surfaced 10 years ago during the writing of De Verste Verte is Hier. Back then I had this strong fascination with the surrealist costumes by Lavinia Schulz and Walter Holdt. I can’t pinpoint our initial motivation but since then, the masks occasionally changed form. Sometimes drastically, having to completely rebuild them. Sometimes very nuanced, removing and (re)constructing tiny fragments. Like their material conditions, their purposes also seem to shift. At times they attract a lot of attention. At other times, they allow us to decenter certain aspects of ourselves and provide a place of hiding. They can be conceptually entwined with our lyrics and gestures as well as being detached and contrasting to them. For me, they’ve become close acquaintances on an endeavour, which is also why I’m often afraid we’ve forgotten them at home while already on the road.
There’s this scene in Home Alone in which Kevin’s mother is full of worry, seated in a plane, high up in the air. She has this horrible feeling that she’s forgetting something important due to her rush to get to the airport. Suddenly, after realizing she left her son at home, she sits up straight and shouts “KEVIN!” We have been that woman.
Sylwin: Yes I agree on that part. The masks showcase a vagueness, a tentativity. We don’t really know where they will bring us in the future.
Loveloth: And that’s great! It’s no Slipknot but it will do haha! Kidding aside, I believe masks are powerful tools in music if used right, look at what Ghost did with them, it’s honestly incredible. Shout out to “KEVIN” too, think I saw the first two Home Alone films at least 25 times each, the third one isn’t that bad too!
Regarding your album, happy to hear it’s in the mixing process and happier to see you writing new stuff regardless. Will definitely check out both as I haven’t listen to them yet.
And since we touched upon theatre a bit, I'm curious about how films play a role in your sound considering how multiple excerpts were utilized in Ons Vrije Fatum. Both the title track and “Bitterzoet” use them and honestly, I had to Google them because I had no idea from where they originated. A Google or five later I see Frida from 2002 (which I now added to my watchlist so thanks!) and the second one... I simply could not find. Now considering I noticed another film excerpt in the follow-up and most recent banger Het Wassen Oog but not on your debut, I'm wondering if they'll make a return on your upcoming album and how important these excerpts are for your art? I honestly really like them because of how tastefully they're implemented.
Nicky: You have a keen ear, and are very right about Frida! There are no film samples on Het Wassen Oog, although we have sought to achieve some cinematic effects through our own recordings. The spoken-word passages are done by two old friends, Solange and Suzy. The crowd you hear in “Weerworm” is recorded at De Rat, a tiny and recommendable pub in Utrecht. The intro of “Blind Staren” is us pretending to be foliage artists in the kitchen of our old studio, and the maniacal laughter in “Zinsbetovering” is by some German teens we ran into while taking a break from drum recordings. They were hanging on the opposite side of a clearing on top of a hill, and their uncontrollable laughing just had to be documented for future generations.
I believe that the right sample at the right time can really open up a musical experience. It allows for a specific context or environment to unveil itself to the listener, bringing in a more directed and sometimes even visual interpretation of the music. On the upcoming record we again try to implement this as fittingly as possible. I’m curious to hear about your findings as soon as it gets released!
Loveloth: Why thank you and I absolutely agree! Excerpts add so much character and if well placed, you can remember them clearer than the songs themselves, take that out bike bell in “Haat & Bonhomie”, that was such a nice and very Dutch touch!
De Rat looks lovely as well. Another question I like to ask, and it's a classic, how big of a role video games PLAY winks in your lives and musical endeavours? Saw a post with you three vibing in your own unique way with Silent Hill on a PS1. Still have ONE another wink and it still works! Love those things. Have distinct memories of playing Crash, Spyro, Croc 2, Tarzan, Hercules and many others to this day!
Nicky: Those old games contain an atmosphere that is so different to find elsewhere! While classics like Silent Hill are very carefully designed, much of the atmosphere is also driven by technological limitations. Take the game’s thick fog for example. It really adds to the creepy mystique and claustrophobia but also makes sure the game runs smoothly by cleverly concealing the overall draw distance. It’s always inspirational, not only in video games but also in music, to see people make the most of something within their material limits.
I do think that (video) games find their way in Laster, as does other fiction that we engage with. While hardly ever being a direct musical inspiration, those interactive worlds and stories bring forth conversations, ideas, and an ambience to artistically orientate ourselves. I’ve just finished playing 13 Sentinels, and while I found the ending to be a bit lacklustre, its overall story and structure really held me captive. Right now, I’m enjoying some Fire Emblem: Awakenings on my 3DS during train rides and I’m eagerly awaiting the re-release of Persona 4 Golden. When given the chance, I’ll happily ramble on and on about the brilliance of Disco Elysium and NieR: Automata, or why some OST’s have changed my life.
Sylwin: Video games play a considerable role in my life. Although I haven’t played a single game during the period of my studies (except for The Beginner’s Guide together with Nicky and Wessel), I started playing again during a Covid lockdown. I got re-hooked on gaming for three reasons: 1) it is fun, 2) it opens a door to philosophical analysis and 3) it provides me with a feeling of security.
When I was a little kid, I also played some of the games that you mentioned above and many others. Returning to these and current generations of games helped me find more protection in difficult times. I think that this phenomenon, the sense of security when playing games projects the Child in me. That is, even literally: the kid that wants to discover a new world right there in front of me, onto the screen, in which I am immersed as well. Actually, playing games that affect me this way helps me to understand that I enjoy the right to be. It brings peace, and solace. By consequence, I think it lends itself as a source to our lyrical mania. Generally, technologies of user products are, for they are so integral to our identities: flexible, fluid, often unsettled. I find that fascinating. Wessel: As a kid, I was a very big The Legend of Zelda fan. I played Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask for many, many hours, I even bought a replica of the ocarina and still have a replica of the Master Sword at home, total fanboy, haha. The music from these games have inspired me a lot, it’s so incredibly catchy! Since then, I have always been a big fan of RPG and adventure games. Recently I’ve got a PS4 so I can catch up on the latest games a bit. I’m totally hooked on Horizon at the moment. But I know I always have to be a bit careful with gaming, since I am very sensitive to addiction. I have to finish a game within a short period of time and then stop for a while before starting a new one, otherwise I cannot think about anything else than the game I’m currently playing. Even when the storyline isn’t that good.
Loveloth: Absolutely. The first Resident Evil games are also another excellent example of tech limitations adding to the whole experience and I have not heard of 13 Sentinels nor The Beginner’s Guide so I got some homework to do! Know of Fire Emblem and Persona though and NieR: Automata and Disco Elysium have been on my radar for years now. Absolutely gonna play through them when I can! Honestly, I never was that big on Nintendo games and I never had a Nintendo product so I leaned more into Playstation territory. Still haven’t played a single Zelda game which is something I wanna change and I will eventually. To add on your answer Wessel, I am very similar in that regard. If something immerses me which is often times the case, I am in there and most of my thoughts are razor focused on that. Latest example of this is Elden Ring. Also very glad that you got yourself a PS4 Sylwin!
As someone who bought it because of Bloodborne and Horizon: Zero Dawn, I am excited you’re dipping your toes again. Bloodborne in particular stands out to me as it changed my life. It didn’t change the way I think about games as that changes slowly with every passing day. Rather it made me feel (and think) so much and to this day feels like the closest thing to my ideal game. Best OST of all time as well… in my opinion of course so definitely play it if able, all three of you!
Other than Elden, I’ve been enjoying Slay The Spire and A Plague Tale: Innocence which is something that would perfectly fit with your music. The dance between you, the Inquisition and the unstoppable, chaotic neutral rats is beautiful, even more so when you see how they portrayed existence in medieval France. Very raw yet stylized, highly recommend it!
Been loving these answers so let's go for a few more. Now, considering you mentioned the tour grind, I’m wondering if you watch, listen or play something during your travels.
Nicky: In the van I’ve been playing some Dragon Quest VIII to unwind. That series is such a warm bath to me. While I bathed in brass hits, the others were rightfully grooving to 90s trance music. One of my favorite musical road moments though was when Sylwin introduced us to Spawn Of Possession. For me, Technical Death Metal is still largely unexplored territory. I have very little feeling for Death Metal in general, so I’m not easily drawn to it, but when it hits a certain technical threshold, I’m intrigued.
Loveloth: Think I played that very same Dragon Quest with my friend back when I was in elementary school but I’m not sure. Spawn Of Possession are about the best in that genre so good pick from Sylwin! As a huge death metal fan, I can vouch how it’s quite possibly the most oversaturated genre in metal, barring maybe black metal. So many bands are doing the same damn thing and with tech death, that can get old super fast so these days I’m very picky. Alkaloid is something I’ll always recommend so definitely check out their sophomore Liquid Anatomy if you can!
Have any local bands or personal favourites you wanna shout out for the readers? Always love asking this because if we cross digital pens in the future, we'll both see if things have changed.
Nicky: Hor Hor by Dvar, Knive by Svarte Greiner, and everything by Hiromi Uehara are keeping me sane these days. When it comes to “recent” underground metal, I’m still returning to Yellow Eyes’ Rare Field Ceiling.
Sylwin: For a long time I have been mostly inspired by ambient music projects. Rafael Anton Irisarri is one of my musical heroes. He creates minimalist ambient-drone soundscapes with a touch classical every now and then. I’m in awe of Lines of Sight by Daniel Thorne, which I think is underrated. I also enjoy Blood Incantation’s take on space ambient music with their previous album Timewave Zero a lot, also because of their sci-fi death metal background. For that reason I also loved Artificial Brain’s new record. I like it a lot when artists maintain a characteristic approach of how they play their music, for example Justin Broadrick (Godflesh, Jesu) and Dälek, experimenting with lyrics and other forms of art, without giving a fuck whether they conform to some cult or ideology or not.
Loveloth: Utterly unfamiliar with your picks Nicky and your first two Sylwin which means I have even more homework to do, hell ye! And it’s been ages since I jumped back into Rare Field Ceiling, or Jesu for that matter. Honestly prefer Jesu over Godflesh but both are iconic in their own right. Totally agree about Broadrick though, the guy is prolific and true to himself, like Devin Townsend who’s my all time fav.
Damn it, I did it again! You see my love for Devy is kind of a meme in this community as I always find a way to mention him and it happened yet again, this time however it took me a while, right before the finish line so let’s close out the show!
Guys you've been absolutely wonderful, once again thank you for agreeing to do this, it was a complete blast and I hope it was for you as well!
Like expected this interview gave me a glimpse in what defines you and your art and I’m happy to say how my lofty expectations have been not just met but surpassed. Hope our paths cross again once more, if not in Zagreb then somewhere else but until that day arrives, I and many others eagerly await your upcoming album and you can be sure I’ll take a good look at it and share my thoughts. Until then, have a wonderful rest of the week and take care!
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